Kick Some Class: CJ Webley talks bringing working class voice to theatre

Birmingham-born playwright and social entrepreneur CJ Lloyd Webley talks to Voice about how he wants to improve the theatre space for people from marginalised backgrounds.

Kick Some Class: CJ Webley talks bringing working class voice to theatre

Could you speak a little bit about your background, and how social class affected you when you were young?

I grew up on a deprived council estate in Erdington [part of Birmingham], which has since been gentrified. My experience was that we didn't have much access to resource and so we had to become very resourceful as a result of that. So areas that you might think shouldn't be used, we were using because we had to find a way to be creative. So there was one particular zone that I was able to frequent, because it was the only space that my parents could really see us outside the house. It was called the Wash Yard and it was supposed to be used for hanging up clothes, but for us we used it to play football and play tennis. As a child, you don't really know that you don't have access to resource, because you just use what's around you. I think, as a result of that, I've just naturally become more creative.

A lot of the people I've spoken to have said that it wasn't until they got into the arts industry that they realised what their background was, and how different it was to the other people in the industry.

I could relate to that. I got a sense of it when I went to school in Sutton [Coldfield]. So a lot of my friends were from Walmley, Four Oaks, Little Aston. I remember we went on a bike ride a couple of times and they'd take us around their neighbourhoods. You’d soon realise that there were people that were living differently than you. I think for me, as long as people acknowledge that there is a difference and that they do have more privilege, then I think it’s not so much of an issue. I think one of my gripes is when people from those areas try to claim that they've got the same struggles as others and aren't able to acknowledge that they do come from that position. 

I think definitely going to Warwick University also highlighted that. The arts sector, but theatre more specifically for me, is very upper middle class. It was quite eye-opening because, in school and growing up, there's less of a distinction. Despite being from different sections of society, you're still together. You're still in the same classroom. But I think when you get to university, people can really create these sub-pockets and societies and things like that. So you do have to what we would call code-switch. You have to learn how to navigate those spaces. Maybe towards third year, I realised that I didn't want to have to do that any more. I wanted to create work that spoke to people that come from a background like me. At that point, I just think I found my voice. I wanted to create work that was different from what you would expect to find in a traditional theatre.

When you were growing up, did you think that being in the theatre world could ever be a full-time career for you?

I would say no. And to be honest, [even now] I would say I have a full-time passion for it, but there are definitely things that I do to supplement it. Ultimately, growing up from not just a working class background, but also the dynamic of being from a Caribbean household as well, people are only seeing what is in their periphery. And so it wasn't necessarily something that was encouraged as a career option. 

But it was definitely something that people identified that I enjoyed and also had talent for. People were definitely interested in me pursuing it, but whether people believed it could be a viable career option, I'm still wondering whether that is possible. I think maybe you can get a role within a theatre, but to be a full-time artist, that's a very challenging thing. What I've tried to do is lean into those entrepreneurial capabilities to ensure that I can sustain the craft.

CJ Lloyd Webley now works on innovative theatre projectsCJ Lloyd Webley now works on innovative theatre projects
(Credit: Jasdeep Sandhu)

And when you did decide to pursue theatre, were there other working class people in the industry who you found inspiring?

My experience was very unique. Once I finished at university, I wanted to go and do a Masters in London and I wanted to pursue creative writing. So I ended up finding a job just as a lunchtime supervisor and I was sweeping floors, chopping sausages as you do. And I went and did a program, which I now lead alongside Mathias Andre, called Lightpost Theatre. It was part of a project called Up My Street and I believe it was part-funded by Mind charity. It was all about supporting mental health and helping young, Black African and Caribbean men to build resilience through the arts. I was very much inspired by the leaders of the group at the time – Philip J Morris, who’s currently a director in London; Daniel Bailey, who is associate director at the Bush Theatre; Kieran Amos. 

Now, of course, they weren't necessarily going down the writing route, but the fact that I saw people in a theatre space putting on projects, putting on shows, directing shows, acting in shows, it made me believe that it was possible. I knew that their background wasn't that dissimilar to mine. Had I not seen that, maybe it would have been a bit more difficult to believe how it can happen. Ultimately, in the arts, it's very much about how you can articulate your vision and I think sometimes people negate the fact that writing is a key component to that. Of course, if you are not the best writer yourself or you're not confident in that, then there are ways to accrue that support elsewhere. So I think there are things that you can do to really boost and propel your own career in that sense.

The point you made at the end there, I think, is really interesting, because that's another thing that's come up a lot is about articulating yourself. A lot of working class creatives have said that it's something they really struggled with, coming into this world where they're suddenly having to articulate themselves to people from a different planet to them in terms of where they grew up.

Yeah, absolutely and I've got a kind of funny example of this. While I was doing my Masters in London, I was working a claims job. But I was fed up with this and I wanted to pursue something creative. So I was getting quite a few interviews within the theatre sector and I was turning up to these interviews in a three-piece suit. People were looking at me as I walk through the door, like: “That's a bit odd to wear a three-piece suit to an arts interview”. But that is the sort of nuance that you wouldn't really understand unless you've already been through the experience. The arts environment typically is a little bit more casual, so you'd want to wear something a bit more smart-casual to the interview to reflect that culture. I didn't have that brief. At the time, I was always taught to present your best in the interviews. 

I wasn't getting through the door and I spoke to one of my mentors, saying I feel like I've got the experience and I'd be good in the role, but I'm not getting the job roles. He asked what I was wearing to the interview and I told him. He said: “Well, you need to tone that right down, because they're more interested in you as a person, your background, and what you feel you can bring to the role, as opposed to what you're wearing.” 

He said the best thing for you to do is be true to who you are like. Let them know really who you are, where you're from, what got you into the arts. A lot of arts venues are trying to reach a different demographic now, and they're trying to be more accessible. They're trying to be more inclusive. So you can present that. If they're not interested in it, then that's absolutely fine, but at least you know that you've conveyed your authentic self in that space as much as possible. Once I started to adopt that mindset as opposed to trying to perform a version of myself that may not be as authentic. I noticed I was getting more opportunities because I was speaking to my truth.

CJ Lloyd Webley grew up on an estate in BirminghamCJ Lloyd Webley grew up on an estate in Birmingham
(Credit: Amelia Webley)

Since you got into the theatre world, have you come up against any barriers because of your social class status?

If I take it back to university, I had a lot of friends on my course that graduated from university and they were just able to get straight into volunteering and they could do apprenticeships here and there. They weren't that fussed about the financial game because they knew that their parents would just support them to do it. Now I knew that a lot of the opportunities I wanted were in London, but I was going to have to move back to Birmingham to make things work out. I didn't have someone who could pay for those travel expenses. I didn't have anybody who could just spot me for a couple of weeks, whilst I was trying to pursue this thing.

So there was very much a disparity in terms of what [my friends’] portfolio would look like within three months as opposed to what mine would look like. I have bills to pay. I have to put food on the table. They were just able to get opportunity after opportunity. Now I still respect their graft because they still put themselves out there and took the opportunities and utilised their privilege, but what it does do is it means from what it took for me to get two opportunities, they were able to get 10 opportunities. So when they're applying for the next thing, they've got so many more experiences that they can draw on, so many more opportunities that they've accessed, and people that they've met through those. Maybe their parents were in the industry. Maybe they've got family members who are in the industry. They were just able to get into certain doors a lot easier. 

One of the things I did when I went to London, and someone can steal this if they want to do it. But I made a list of all the theatres in London and I said: “Right, I'm gonna make sure I make contact with at least one or two people in those theatres.” So every week I would just go and email the box office and say I was gonna come in and drop off my CV and introduce myself. I just did that at every theatre and lo and behold, a few of them did come back and say: “Oh, we've got this program and this program.” It did make them aware of who I was and what I was trying to pursue whilst I was in London.

Definitely. And do you think in the time that you've been in the theatre space that representation of working class creatives has improved or changed in any way?

It's challenging for me to answer that directly, because the work that I'm doing is all about trying to bring people who don't conventionally see themselves as theatre makers into the space and helping them to identify the skills they have that are transferable. But I would say more broadly, I think some of the terminology that is used in applications may isolate people. So maybe you might have a “lead producer”. What does that mean to an average person who may be interested in the arts? They may have all the skills of a producer, but not know what that term means. I think it's sometimes in the language. It's sometimes in how people are accessing the information. 

If you, for example, are going to an inner-city school in Birmingham and somebody comes in and speaks to you about what it means to be a producer while you're in year seven or eight, you have that information early on. When that role comes up later on in life, you'll say: “Oh, I remember when I met a producer when I was 11 or 12 years old, and they said they did this, this, and this.” The terminology is not alien to you.

I'd say, from my experience, I still think it is only primarily catering to a particular section of individuals who are already thinking about that type of work. There’s still a lot of work to do. I don't often feel that I am represented in most spaces that I go into, and there's the nuance of culture and identity that can come into that as well. I think it's getting better, but I would still say there's a lot of work to do in terms of making sure people feel comfortable and safe in those environments.

You've hinted at this in that answer, but what do you think needs to change to improve that representation?

It's definitely the type of environments we're presenting opportunities to. It's more about role models and ensuring that young people have representation that is accessible to them. In every region, people should be able to name working class artists that are in this region. You should be able to just say who those people are. We talk about role models and we often think about those who are already successful, prominent figures. But actually, there's people within your own city that are doing great work, and you should be able to understand who those people are and access them. So I think there's something in, particularly, schools being willing to branch out and say to arts venues: “Do you have any artists there that can come and inspire our students?” 

I know that theatres have that commercial responsibility, but there also is a social responsibility that needs to be tapped into a lot more. We also need more artists that don't just think about what they can gain from the art that they're producing, but also who can they bring in? Who can they support once they get a commission? Have you thought about the types of individuals that you could be working with on this project as well? There's a responsibility that we all have to make this space more diverse and eclectic.

CJ Lloyd Webley hopes to act as a role model to young people in the artsCJ Lloyd Webley hopes to act as a role model to young people in the arts
(Credit: Reuvie Barbon)

Could talk a little bit about the help you got from Midlands Arts Centre on the project you're doing now?

I had this idea about doing a project about my estate because I visited there recently and I realised the place where I grew up looks nothing like what I remembered it to be. There was a sense of uncomfortability, because I don't feel like I belong here anymore, but actually the best part of my childhood was spent walking those same streets. I'd love to put on an immersive piece about this and interrogate the relationship that we have with people and places. We go through that grieving process with people, but then there's also a process that takes place when you lose the space that was once something you held dear. 

Then this opportunity for the MAC Commission came up. I think it was the first MAC Commission for £10,000 to put on the production and build your team. I thought it looked like a great opportunity, so I tried to wrap my head around what I wanted this piece to be. I didn't have all the finer details. I just knew that I had a connection to a space that was no longer there and I wanted to reimagine that environment in the theatrical realm. So I put a proposal through and they invited me for an interview. I just spoke from the heart. I know that people will resonate with this. I think it will tap into a portion of society. We're talking here about working class individuals and I think those are the type of individuals that would be interested in this piece, because it's speaking directly to their experience. 

[MAC has] been really, really supportive of my vision. I've been very detailed in how I want the space to look and all the technicalities of it. MAC has been really helping me think about: How do you want people to feel about it? How do you want to feel at the end of it? And where do you want this piece to go? Those are really key questions that helped me to refine my approach and think about the future of a piece, not just what's happening in the room here and now. I believe it's gonna be March next year, so we're in the throes of rehearsals right now. It’s been a really cool experience.

Before I let you go, I always like to ask people what advice would you give to a working class person today who wants to get into the theatre world?

Somebody said this quote the other day: “You can't put a wishbone where a backbone should be.” So if you want something to happen, you really have to start building the foundations. And what that means is building your network, building your experience, going for opportunities, and not being afraid to take risks as well. Sometimes we think that an opportunity is not for us, but actually we should just apply for it. It’s just being confident in who you are, first and foremost. Be proud of your identity and where you came from. Don't try to hide that. And just enjoy the process. It's not an easy journey, but it's a journey worth taking.

Visit CJ Lloyd Webley's website to find out more about his work, including his new project Lyndhurst Memories.

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Header Image Credit: Jasdeep Sandhu

Author

Tom Beasley

Tom Beasley Editor

Tom is the editor of Voice and a freelance entertainment journalist. He has been a film critic and showbiz reporter for more than seven years and is dedicated to helping young people enter the world of entertainment journalism. He loves horror movies, musicals, and pro wrestling — but not normally at the same time.

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