Kick Some Class: Liam Pape on supporting working class comedy

Liam Pape is the man behind the West End Comedy Club's working class bursary, helping comedians with the hefty costs of the Edinburgh Fringe. He spoke to Voice about the importance of supporting working class voices in stand-up.

Kick Some Class: Liam Pape on supporting working class comedy

I wanted to ask you a little bit about the way the West End Comedy Club supports working class people getting into comedy?

We try to make sure that our line-ups are as diverse as possible. A lot of people just think diversity means in terms of colour or creed, but we also mean in terms of background. And of course, that's not something that is easy to figure out when people are applying to have a spot at the club. But it's something that's important to us. So we try to keep our line-ups as diverse as possible when it comes to sex, ethnicity, gender, and religion, as well as having some working class people on the bill. 

Last year, we also ran a working class bursary just before the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Working class comedians could submit a video and then we had a showcase for the top five that we picked out, who were all exceptional comedians who just happened to be working class. The criteria was that the people entering the competition needed to be debuting in Edinburgh last year. Everyone who got through to the showcase got some money, and then the winner got some more money. 

It's not that easy to define working class, so did you have criteria for the bursary?

We did think about this long and hard. How do you prove that you're working class? I think a lot of people just think it comes down to income, but a lot of it is values as well. It's all about who your network is, maybe what kind of school you went to. It is a really intersectional and complex criteria. So our criteria for entering the bursary was that we had a tick box on the application of: “Are you working class?” We trusted that people weren't going to abuse that and we weren't going to get people who didn't hit the criteria. As weird as it sounds, I think there's also a smell test you can do as well. The world of comedy isn't that big, so about 90% of the people were already on our radar. But similarly, we didn't need to exclude anyone or say: ”Hold on a second. This person went to Eton and their father is a member of the House of Lords.”

I think comedy is also a really interesting one when it comes to class. Often the money involved in comedy, until you make it to TV levels, isn't that big. So you get people who do come from really affluent backgrounds and affluent parts of the country and have parents who are doing well-paid jobs, but they’ll be doing a lot of open spots and a lot of gigs that don't pay that much money. I think, from that, a lot of comedians who maybe aren't working class have adopted a working class identity. I’m not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. I just think comedians are really interesting when it comes to defining class and how income intersects with that as well.

In comedy as a field, what are the main barriers for working class people trying to get in there and make their way to do it as a job?

A lot of the route into live comedy [involves] working your way through the open mic circuit, then maybe hopping on some mid-size clubs like us to do some open spots, and then eventually they turn into paid gigs. But you need to kind of get this wealth of expertise before you can really kind of unlock the paid gigs. Often a comedian based in London might need to travel all the way up somewhere in the West Midlands for a gig that barely covers train travel. What I'm trying to say is that, for people who have some money behind them already, it makes it a hell of a lot easier to be able to give up a couple of hours on an evening. [Working class comedians] don't have that financial security, and therefore it could be hard for them to break into the industry, because often they'll need to be working on an evening with actual paid jobs in order to hit rent, be able to heat the house in winter, buy food, etc.

Liam Pape (top, second from left) with the finalists for the West End Comedy Club working class bursaryLiam Pape (top, second from left) with the finalists for the West End Comedy Club working class bursary

Are there any changes happening in that world? Is it easier or harder to be a working class comedian now than it was a decade ago?

I think that's a big question. The cop-out answer that is kind of the answer to everything in the world of comedy for the last two years has been TikTok. It has democratised it a lot more. Because of the rise of online comedy, there is ability to make little sketches or monologues by yourself in your bedroom, and actually accumulate an audience by doing that. Then [that audience means you can] play a club, do your own show and fill it out with people who only know you from the internet. That has been a great way in because there aren't the traditional gatekeepers. And also, if you're bringing your own audience, you can demand a fee or you can ticket it yourself.

But I think it's probably fair to say that new mediums present the same problems for working class comedians: you need to spend significant time doing unpaid work before paid opportunities materialise. And of course, that's not a guarantee and in many cases can still take years to build up enough momentum to land a paid sponsorship deal or concentrate enough of an audience in one location to put on a solo show. Social media is another vehicle for upcoming to comedians to leverage, but it still demands so much unpaid labour to get it off the ground, which a lot of working-class acts won't have the time or resources for. 

As for a larger change in the industry, I think the work that Best in Class [founded by comedian Sian Davies] is doing is very important. That runs up at the Edinburgh Fringe every year and it's a show just for working class comedians, with all the profits from the show distributed to those comedians. I think things are getting better, but because of things like the cost of living and expensive train tickets, [finance] is still, I think, the most difficult barrier to entry as a working class comedian. 

And with your bursary specifically, what impact does that have on people who are lucky enough to receive it?

Money. The Edinburgh Fringe is just immensely expensive. Everything down to the cost of accommodation to really mean door-splits with the venue. If you want PR, that's extra. If you want a producer, they're taking a cut as well. The Edinburgh Fringe just seems to be endless expenses. So I think money is just a very simple answer. But often that's what makes the difference.

What are the biggest challenges that you guys have faced in trying to advance the cause of working class people in comedy?

Being a mid-sized, midweek club, we find ourselves in in the squeezed middle of comedy. If you look at our competitors and other comedy clubs in London, you've got the high-end like the Comedy Store, which has been running for over 40 years. They can charge a premium for tickets. Then, on the flip-side, you've got immense comedy clubs like Top Secret, which have just opened a second venue. Often on a weeknight, they charge just one or two pounds per entry, because they're able to make all their money on the bar and then do a pay-what-you-want model at the end, where they really encourage people to do that. Unfortunately, we don't own our own venue – we're partners with the Covent Garden Social Club – so we can only make money from ticket sales. We can't charge as much as the Comedy Store because we're only a few years old and we don't have the same reputation, but similarly, we can't do a Top Secret model either. 

So the challenge for us is getting the revenue in to then give back to comedians. And of course, if we were making more revenue then our fees for comedians would be higher and we would be able to put on more shows. We find ourselves in the squeezed middle, but I don't think we're alone in that. I think there's other comedy clubs that will be feeling the same, and also just more widely in the hospitality industry, speaking to friends who work in bars, restaurants, clubs, etc. It’s the squeezed middle in the whole of hospitality that seems to be struggling the most at the moment.

West End Comedy ClubThe West End Comedy Club sits in the heart of London's theatre district

And what's the future looking like for the club and for the bursary?

For the club, we're looking to grow, but exactly how that will look at the time being we're not entirely sure, and the bursary we're looking to do again because it was really successful the first time round. 

What advice would you give to working class people who want to get into comedy today?

Know your worth. Some gigs will just keep you on open spots for years and years and years. Maybe have the confidence to turn them down, or if possible, ask the promoter or booker what is the route to progression. But I realise it's a lot easier said than done because there are a lot of personalities in comedy and promoters especially aren't the best with criticism or being put in a corner. 

Comedy, I think, is really different to most industries on that basis, because you do have to work for free. There's no alternative to begin with. You have to do those free, unpaid open spots otherwise you're never going to get anywhere.

Looking around London, there are just endless open mic nights as well, where the comedians performing are often doing it for free just to get their solid 5-10 minutes [of material] or 100-200 gigs under their belt, whatever they think they need in order to progress to the next level of clubs. These clubs will always exist and it's a complicated one as well, because it's not necessarily a bad thing having unpaid spots. 

With journalism, you can sit down with a trainee reporter, pay them for their time, guide them through it, and by the time they're putting out the final thing, it's been edited and reviewed. They've learned something from it. However, with comedy, it's very much: “Right, you've got five minutes. No guidance. Get on that stage.” With comedy, unlike maybe a lot of other things in the arts, you need an audience even just to practise. You cannot practise comedy looking in the mirror or in your bedroom. Even if it's just a group of 10 people, you need to be saying it in front of that audience.

So know your worth, but also if you are a working class comedian, really do persevere because I think now, just as much as in the past, there is a need for working class comedians, both on the circuit and on television. I think they are still vastly under-represented. So if it is possible and you are a working class comedian, do keep gigging and do keep fighting the good fight.

Find out more about the West End Comedy Club by visiting their website.

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Header Image Credit: Matthew Curry

Author

Tom Beasley

Tom Beasley Editor

Tom is the editor of Voice and a freelance entertainment journalist. He has been a film critic and showbiz reporter for more than seven years and is dedicated to helping young people enter the world of entertainment journalism. He loves horror movies, musicals, and pro wrestling — but not normally at the same time.

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